Ritual language translation discussions

[Marcel de Giverny]

Layla, you forgot the first line.  Would you like to speculate on that?  I added it in red below.

An alternative offering for the Anchoress inscription based on the following thoughts: Me=we, Kathu= in order to, sandengiza=sacrifice...

Zhedethil Zhetiseshina

Mathu Sandengizana madathinilas
We sacrificed the blood

Mazesenla makanonla zo ma’unala
The strength, the knowledge and ___________(something with chaos)

Kel matuthona ka sheashen’ata/ kel mathuthana kel sheashen'ata
Of the favored to lady of dreams/of the favored of the Dreaming goddess

Kathu dhenshena madashenla
In order to open the way

Zo zepana matiseshenla
And rule the broken

Layla

[Miri Thorel]

Catching up here with a few notes.

MAZOKU could be "the exile" not "the Zoku," since we think ZOKUNA is "exile," right? So it might not mean the Zoku like we think of them today, but some exiled person/people/thing.

zunumutoma (suma shodhoma? as in the 2nd blessing?)

ZUNNUMODHOMA (or something like it, we have a couple different transcriptions) is repeated three times at the end of the plaque in the Anchoress's cell, too. It seems to be a word or phrase that had some special significance. I'm not sure about it being the same as SUMA SHODHOMA, though it could be. DHOMA is enemy, ZHODHOMA or SHODHOMA is "many enemies," we think, right? So I'm guessing that ZUNNUMO- (which might be a few different prefixes stuck together) has a particular meaning. It's all one word on the plaque, I think.

Also, a note about one of the Seeking Serpent plaques:

ZHOTHA E'E'NA TOSHONZHOTHA: E'EL is "peace," so maybe that's "Snake pacifies/makes peace with Owl-Snake"?
And then ZHOTHA DHOMANE TOSHONZHOTHA: Since DHOMA is "enemy," maybe that's "Snake opposes Owl-Snake"?

--Miri

[Layla]

Bujbuj said I should just leave it out as we have currently have no solid new conjecture on it. Bujbuj is lazy.

That said it is interesting that we only see the zhe- prefix in a few places in our current documents.
In the anchoress inscriptions:
Zhedethil Zhetisheina
(   )child (    )broke

From the Fellfold inscriptions (starts exactly the same as the Anchoress with that line)
ZHEDETHL ZHETISESHINA
(     ) child   (       )broke
MOSHOZA MAPENTHEMAGALA
Create  The Weavewalker

and it repeats again in a fell fold inscription later
ZHEDETHIL ZHETISESHINA
(       ) child   (       )broke
GIBA MAPENTHEMAGALA
to fill the weavewalker

whereas a different inscription in the fellfold show tishena without the zhe prefix
ZHOMO'A TISESHINA
many ____ Broke
SEDETHILA
(     )child/children

and the only other example we have is one of the plaques...

19.
Ma shi'ekiza moshoza zho'uzula zil zhepabosha kel kanon
(Perhaps the same as Mashil’ekiza) The unnamed creates many keys in (zhe denotes a modifier- ing maybe?)burn of knowledge

In plaque 19 the idea that it signifies a verb-turned-into-a-noun makes sense, less so when one looks at the anchoress and fell fold inscriptions. HOWEVER perhaps they are those fiddly things, when you turn a verb-or-noun-into-an-adjective instead and the zhe on the child/thread noun is signifying it's a something past as opposed to using it in the present bits like plaque 19?

So they it becomes

Broken child/thread
We sacrificed the blood,
the strength, the knowledge, and ___________(something with chaos)
of the favored of the Dreaming goddess
In order to open the way
And rule the broken

Broken child/thread
creates the weavewalker

Broken child/thread
fills the weavewalker

many ____ Breaks
SEDETHILA
(     )child/thread

19.
The unnamed creates many keys in burning knowledge (or perhaps burned knowledge?- there has to be a reason they used zhe and kel as opposed to putting zhe on both the nouny thingy "kanon/knowledge" and the adjectivey thingy- "pabosha/burning" )

Anywho, if we can find some more examples we'll probably be able to narrow that down!

Layla

[Layla]

Miri, we definitely think that dhomane is a verb form of opposes!

We have 'e'ena in three places in the information we have currently.

In the passage you noted:
1)
Zhotha 'e'ena toshonzhotha
Snake __________ the snakeowl
Toshonzhotha 'izena kanonla
Snake Owl __________ knowledge
Zhadogondun nazhinzhana
the plains of stone transformed

In this one:
NEKANOMA MASENA
(knowledge) I sing
NEZEBENA MASENA
(      ) I sing
NEPETE'ENA MASENA ZO MAMADHIL KEL SATHU'O
 ______ I sing and the music of Nightmare
NEDIPISENA DOSENA ZO DOMATHIL THO 'E'ENA
unite both sing and both musics ________ ______

And I'm fairly confident its here as well though this is off a verbal record.

Medathanu (madathini/madath'unu) nizezhana (Nazinzhan) kathu zhovena (zho’ena/sho’ena?) mashipovka (mashepakel) kotha (kathu) gokana (gakanon?/gogunla?) masasivesem ( ma/zhe sasi’sem) zel madhavona (mada ‘unu) matevormum (Mata’omun) vivena (‘e’ena?)
The blood transforming in order to ___________ the shield in order to their knowledge _________ in  ________ the wisdom ________

So, unsure if it means pacified as we simply don't have enough information in the other two contexts to really see, but it's as good a speculation as any we think!
Layla

[Chel Verdansk]

One of de Plaques from Farseer:

Do Dipisen
Zhadogondun sandengiza
dampogu kathu moshoza
'e'el

Zoku mark over crescent moon and owl

zo kazhagen'izen
nazhinzhana

The Second of the Concordance
The people of the Plains of Stone sacrifice
their community in order to create
peace

and moonlight
transforms

I added some words to make a better meaning.

[Chel Verdansk]

De Seeking Serpent puzzles:

Zhotha Tuthona ka mabo'o'ola
Zhotha dhomana Toshozhotha
Zhotha 'izena Matizhala

Zhotha 'e'ena Toshonzhotha
Toshonzhotha 'izena kanonla
Zhadogondun Nazhinzhana

Zhotha followed (or favored) 3(?) the North
Zhotha opposed Toshonzhotha
Zhotha lighted(?) the Tizha

Zhotha 'i'e-ed Toshonzhotha
Toshonzhotha lighted(?) the Knowledge
The People of the Plains of Stone changed

I am reviving idea dat -dun is de people of, from Kotodun, de people near Mt. Koto.

Dis fits in wit Seeking Serpent lore, which says dat Tyrissi (Zhotha) was against de war waged by her Queen, and "Toshonzhotha" was a symbol of Royal house of de Nort.

Now, what is alternate meaning of ka and what is meaning of tizha?

[Marcel de Giverny]

The Spring 809 edition has been uploaded to the Repository.  I may not have time to incorporate edits between now and the gathering.

[Miri Thorel]

I was just thinking about plaque 13 (the one that has a picture of the sun, a water drop, and the earth partly cracked and partly filled with wheat).

KOTO SANDENGIZA KATHU
GIBA MATASENGAN KATHU
GIBA MA

Our previous translation didn't have KOTO translated, but now we know or think that's "silver."

So this becomes:
Silver sacrifice in order to
Fill the earth in order to
Fill one

(It's possible there's some other meaning for "ma" that we don't know, I suppose.)

I am wondering if this has to do with the legend I heard about the royal family of the Land of Gold and Silver sacrificing itself to save the Land - I mean the actual land of the Land, which, so it's said, was basically killed by the Nightmare War, leading to continuing famine after the war.

It might be totally unrelated, but this is a good place for speculating!

--Miri

[Chel Verdansk]

I actually find it much more likely d'at koto in d'is case is refering to what we call "Kotodun." 

[Layla]

New text/rituals from early spring 809. I'm not 100% certain on some of my later transcriptions. Hazel or Shoshan can hopefully corroborate...

This one is apparently from the Keep from LAST moon (Winter 808)
Found in the last keep in the winter of 808
Zhado’ata nezebena ma zepanla
Zhado’ata ninazhinana mazepanla
zil matoshonzhotha
kathu zunnumadhoma
kathu shepa
kathu shupothana ma sumakula mashem’ila
kathu nibana
kathu  ‘uzana masenala

From early spring 809
Ritual found on Weavewalk 5th night to nightmare war
Mesena shosathu’ola giba sedidalu nokodo

Ritual for renewing the land for harvest.
Mesena ka Tamal’ata ninizhana makenala kel dhodhotho’o

Ritual to deal with the yellow orb left by Fera’s forces in last 808 (created by Misia, Niko and Layla under the guidance of Orsula)
Gammaso nazinzhana ka nezhimel kathu suma zhothothu 
Yellow transforms to white in order to destroy binding

Found in the Black Keep in excavated room
Mesena shado’atala
ni shepa
mela

Throne:
Mesena dete’atala
kel sathu’o zo
she’ashena
nisi’eda mela

Kotodun bridge expedition early spring 809
shebenzil tisheshinama dampogula kel mel

shebenzil zokuna nela ben mel

Mogoguna masandengiza kel mel

Unsure where these are from...
mesena nashoto’atala
nu gokana mela

mesena zho’tha’atala
nizebena mela

Nisi’eva shan gesama
dusona shedhoma
suma shedidala tha’ona makanonla

Nipeta’ena mila pin manokodo kel
mapopothuma
pin kel modusha kel’unu

[Miri Thorel]

Oh, here's one I found in my notes from last winter, which came from a pottery shard in Silverspeech:

Bazogondun - the golden plains

--Miri

[Layla]

My thoughts on some old stuff and new stuff now that we theoretically have new guidelines for vowel changes and some new words...

New stuff:
Found in the last keep in the winter of 808
Zhado’ata nezebena ma zepanla
Zhado’ata ninazhinana mazepanla
zil matoshonzhotha
kathu zunnumadhoma
kathu shepa
kathu shupothana ma sumakula mashem’ila
kathu nibana
kathu  ‘uzana masenala

The Stone God ___________ one ruler
The Stone God tranforms the ruler
in the basilisk
in order to ___________
in order to protect
in order to __________ one ____________ the bitterness
in order to __________
in order to unlock the song

From early spring 809
Ritual found on Weavewalk 5th night to nightmare war

Mesena shosathu’ola giba sedidalu nokodo
We invoke (   )nightmare to fill ___________ location.

Ritual of the harvest
Mesena ka Tamal’ata ninizhana makenala kel dhodhotho’o
We sing to the God Tamal grow the life (out) of sickness
Makenala- renew/rejuvenate/regenerate/revitalize/create/birth/produce- Bring new life

Ritual to deal with the yellow orb left by Fera’s forces in last 808 (created by Misia, Niko and Layla under the guidance of Orsula)
Gammaso
nazinzhana
ka nezhimel
kathu suma
zhothothu 
Yellow transforms to white in order to destroy binding

Found in the Black Keep in excavated room
Mesena shado’atala
ni shepa
mela

We invoke Stone God
protect us

Throne:
Mesena dete’atala
kel sathu’o zo
she’ashena
nisi’eda mela

We invoke the two gods
of nightmare and
dream
Watch over us

Kotodun bridge expedition early spring 809
shebenzil tisheshinama dampogula kel mel
Mountain break our community

shebenzil zokuna nela ben mel
mountain divides you from us

Mogoguna masandengiza kel mel
Mourn our sacrifice

mesena nashoto’atala
nu gokana mela
We invoke the Sky God
_____   ________ us

mesena zho’tha’atala
nizebena mela
We invoke The snake God
__________ us

dola kel bazel
the two of gold

Nisi’eva shan gesama
dusona shedhoma
suma shedidala tha’ona makanonla

______    ______   black
is enemy
destroy ____________    __________ the knowledge

Nipeta’ena mila pin manokodo kel
mapopothuma
pin kel modusha kel’unu

You find ______ within the location of
the comet
within of (   ) eats of chaos



Old stuff:

1)
Zhotha 'e'ena toshonzhotha
Snake __________ the snakeowl
Toshonzhotha 'izena kanonla
Snake Owl clarifies knowledge
Zhadogondun nazhinzhana
the plains of stone transform

SHEASHENATA NISIEDA MELA KATHU SHEPA MELA BEN SHODHOMA KEL MEL
Dreaming Goddess watch us in order to protect us of our adversaries
SHEASHENATA NISHENA SEZEN KA MIL KATHU SUMA SHODHOMA KEL MEL
Dreaming Goddess dream strength to us in order to destroy our adversaries

NEKANOMA MASENA
You learn the song
NEZEBENA MASENA
You ____________ the song
NEPETE'ENA MASENA ZO MAMADHIL KEL SATHU'O
You find the song and the music of Nightmare
NEDIPISENA DOSENA ZO DOMATHIL THO 'E'ENA
you unite both songs and music then  ______


29.
Mazenzadil moshoza kemeshishela pin makiziba kel zhothu'o'u
_____________(Wild guess is the Crafter/architect/title or the like for someone) creates ______________ within the cave of mirrors.

17.
madanto mabazel shepa dathinila kel mazepan makoto
The gold mask protects the blood of the silver king

From the top of the chest containing the artifacts
Ma’ekiza zhothotha madhenshen sena
Ma’ekiza kathu dhashena

The name binds the opening invoke
 the name in order to open

Mathu Sandengizana madathinilas**
In order to sacrifice the blood
**Orsula said that this was very likely a mistake. She thought it most likely that the person got the first and last letter right and the middle messed up when they wrote the original message. In that case we have the two following versions that would fit...
Ma’uzu or Ma’unu Sandengiza madathinilas
The key or The chaos sacrificed the blood

Layla

[Chel Verdansk]

My thoughts on some old stuff and new stuff now that we theoretically have new guidelines for vowel changes and some new words...

New stuff:
Found in the last keep in the winter of 808
Zhado’ata nezebena ma zepanla
Zhado’ata ninazhinana mazepanla
zil matoshonzhotha
kathu zunnumadhoma
kathu shepa
kathu shupothana ma sumakula mashem’ila
kathu nibana
kathu  ‘uzana masenala

The Stone God ___________ one ruler
The Stone God tranforms the ruler

Layla,
transforms is nazhinzhana, not ninazhinana.

Also, could you double check to make sure "ma zepanla" in first line is two words, not one?  Is very important, and I want to be absolutely sure.  T'anks.

[Layla]

Unfortunately I cannot as these were transcriptions from other transcriptions.

That said I’m pretty sure I mistyped and it’s nanzinzhana. I’m also fairly sure it’s mazepanla and I just left too big a gap when copying.

Layla

[Tasi]

Layla,
I fear I am conflating things, but I seem to recall a story about a king who had to sacrifice his five children for some kind of ritual.  The idea of Child/Thread brings to mind either a familial connection, graces (you know why, and it's not nice), or some combination.

Miri,
Were you the one who shared the story with me.  Did your mind go there with new speculation?

19.
Ma shi'ekiza moshoza zho'uzula zil zhepabosha kel kanon
(Perhaps the same as Mashil’ekiza) The unnamed creates many keys in (zhe denotes a modifier- ing maybe?)burn of knowledge

In plaque 19 the idea that it signifies a verb-turned-into-a-noun makes sense, less so when one looks at the anchoress and fell fold inscriptions. HOWEVER perhaps they are those fiddly things, when you turn a verb-or-noun-into-an-adjective instead and the zhe on the child/thread noun is signifying it's a something past as opposed to using it in the present bits like plaque 19?

So they it becomes

Broken child/thread
We sacrificed the blood,
the strength, the knowledge, and ___________(something with chaos)
of the favored of the Dreaming goddess
In order to open the way
And rule the broken

Broken child/thread
creates the weavewalker

Broken child/thread
fills the weavewalker

many ____ Breaks
SEDETHILA
(     )child/thread